Anshu Bahanda: This is Anshu Bahanda on Wellness Curated. Thanks for joining me on this podcast. My mission is to empower you with health and wellness so that you can then go and empower others. Hello Michal, welcome to the chat.
Michal Edree: Thank you.
AB: So, what is wellness to you?
ME: I think for me, wellness has to do with creativity. Because when I create and when I feel my creativity, I feel much better. And I think, when I connect with my inner self. So, this is like wellness for me.
AB: Okay, lovely. And tell me, tell us a little bit, Michal, about art therapy. How exactly does it work and how does it provide a window into our subconscious?
ME: Okay, I’ll say as much as I can about art therapy because I can lecture for hours, so I’ll try to narrow it in a few sentences. So, first of all, art therapy involves the use of creative techniques. It can be sculpturing, it can be drawing, painting, collage, any kind of technique, any kind of material that I as a professional, as an art therapist, think that the clients need or the client might relate to, because each person needs different materials. And actually, in the process of art therapy, we have two perceptions. One said that just doing art is a healing process. You connect to yourself, you express yourself, you can see images. So, this is one thing which is a healing process.
AB: It’s a creative healing that comes with art.
ME: Yes, it comes with just doing any kind of art. Psychoanalytic art therapy or dynamic art therapy, which is what I’m doing in my clinic, is more of creating a bridge between the inner world or you can call it subconscious or whatever, to the outside world, allowing the client to express themselves and tell their stories. Because when we are using art, it’s a non-verbal thing. So, it’s easier for us to connect to our intuition, to our subconscious, and we never know what will come out. Sometimes people have so many defenses, so they can’t speak about stuff like trauma or like abuse or whatever, or things that happened in the past, they don’t want to remember. And things come out. And I think it’s a huge release when you see an image and you say, oh my God, this was inside me for so many years. Now I can talk about it, I can look at it, we can explore it. It’s giving a meaning.
AB: Okay, so now say, once you use art therapy to identify certain issues in people’s lives. Right after that, what happens next?
ME: What is the process?
AB: Yeah, what is the process? How do you help people?
ME: Okay, so art therapy is like any other therapeutic process. There is a connection in the communication between the therapist and the client. When we use art as a language, art is like a space that we use as a language, where the client can bring himself. Sometimes if I see some kind of issue, I see some difficulties, I can ask, maybe we can do a family drawing today. So, the client doesn’t even realize that there might be something behind that. He puts himself on the paper, and then we can look at it and we can talk about it. The most important part about art therapy, besides the creativity and using art, is actually to give the symbols some meaning, to understand the way the client put it on the paper and to look at it together, to give it words, because words leave meaning. It’s one thing to do art, but the second part is that this being my profession, I know how to ask the question. I know how to lead the client, and how to lead the patient to the right places. So it’s a combination of art and myself as a container, as a therapist, as everything. Whatever the clients need, I’ll be there for them.
AB: Okay. You have a way of seeing things. I guess it’s your education plus your experience of 20 years, where even if you’re unaware that there is an issue, you pick it up, which I thought was fascinating. And I can say that from my very small interaction [with you]… you know I haven’t known you that long, unlike some of the therapists who I’ve known for decades, but you can pick up things that we ourselves are not aware of, which is fantastic, I thought.
ME: It’s the combination of me looking at the picture and you are there and trying to see what’s going on. I can say what’s going on, why you did this one in black when your whole picture is in yellow, for example, and you say, ‘Oh, my God, I didn’t notice. But this is an issue that I’ve been dealing with for years, and it’s black because it has a meaning for me.’ So, then we are able to start and speak about it. So I’m looking at the picture, and I just pick up whatever is unique for me from what you or the client did.
AB: Okay. And tell me, so from your experience of having worked with people in different parts of the world, when and whom does this work best for?
ME: I tell you what. I think that for adults, sometimes it’s difficult. I think it’s connected to very early stages. I heard many times people say, oh, I used to do art when I was a kid. I don’t want to do it anymore, because it might have some connection to early memories that we don’t want to deal with. This is one option. Adults also are very self-critical. I don’t know how to do art. I don’t know how to paint. And I’m telling you here now, with all my heart, you don’t need to know anything. The less you know, the better you are because if you have no knowledge, you can feel much more freedom. So, you don’t need to do art before you come to the art therapy session. And I think you even benefit more if you don’t have any knowledge. With children, it’s different because art is the second language for children. The way children play, we never ask why children play. They play because they practice, because they want to have fun, and because they want to understand things. The same with art. It’s totally a language for children that they can express their inner world and they don’t even understand what they are doing. So, when I work with children, usually, [I find that] they use art very freely. They love to try different materials unless there’s an issue with cleaning. Sometimes they have some tactile issues. They don’t want to touch some stuff. So, this is a different work. But for children, art is a language and that’s how we use it. So, sometimes, even with children, I can do my art. I mean, they’re doing their art, I can do my art. And then we communicate through our art if words are too difficult for them. And then we start to give it some meaning and words and understanding.
AB: How can you analyze a child’s painting? Can you give people some pointers? People who have kids of different ages. Or even your own. Sometimes you’re just doodling and you don’t realize it. So, both of these, how would you analyze these?
ME: Okay, so I’ll say a few things. First of all, when I’m doing therapy, I’m not analyzing, I’m asking questions. And it’s like a game of questions and answers. But parents at home, they’re not therapists, they’re not supposed to be the children’s therapists. They just want to understand the child better. As you remember, we said before, the picture is like a reflection of the inner world of the adult, of the child. So, if we look at this picture as the inner world of our child, first of all, I think we’ll understand something else. It doesn’t have to look like reality. The child doesn’t have to know how to paint or how to draw. And the most important thing, the parents need to be very natural and not critical. Because as soon as we criticize our child’s picture or drawing— like why did you do this in this colour? I never saw a blue dog. So, what? That’s how the child feels. What does it matter if it’s close to reality or not? So, I’ll tell you what is my way. First of all, I’m looking at the picture and I try to understand what I feel. Because if I look at the picture, I’ll say it looked very sad to me, something is going on. This is what I feel. For example, sad, happy, messy, anger, any kind of feeling that comes up to your mind, usually, reflects what your child feels. If you look at the picture and you understand what you feel, that means that you can understand what your child feels. And then you can start asking questions and listen to the answer. If you ask what’s going on? I see that you used many colours in your drawing, and it’s very messy all over the place. You use all the paper. So, your child might say, yes, I had a hard day today, and I’m very angry now or I just want to shout. I feel like shouting, that’s how I feel. So, look at what you see and see how you feel. And then you can ask your child. So, this is the first thing. This is what I’m doing first. The second thing that I’m doing is I’m looking at the colours, what kind of colours? Because colours have meaning, and our children use different colours to express themselves. But I want you to understand, sometimes children like certain colours. It can be black, it can be red, it can be green. So, they always use the same colour. All the pictures will be [in the same colour]. But if suddenly they choose another colour, this is a sign that something is going on. Maybe they decided to explore the world and look at other colours. Maybe something happened and they want to say something. So, I know that colour has meaning. But still, you need to be careful and know what your child knows. Because usually girls like pink. So, if your daughter always colours with pink and suddenly, she picks up blue, that [might] mean there’s something going on. And then you can ask, what happened? You chose blue here. Why did you choose blue? And she can say, I hated this girl, that’s why I made her in blue, for example. And the third thing is the composition, how you put it on the paper. Because, for example, if your child wants to sit in and draw, and then he decides to draw something very small in the corner. So, it means that he doesn’t feel comfortable using the whole space, that maybe he feels very small. Maybe he feels that the space is too big for him and he needs to be small. I tell you why I see it a lot. I used to work with a child that had a younger brother. His brother was just born, and the brother was very uncomfortable, crying a lot. And I started to see that the child, who was four years old, started to grow smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller, and I asked what’s going on? Why do you keep changing it? It became smaller and he said, no, my brother is crying all the time. I can’t stand it anymore.
AB: So the brother became smaller?
ME: Yes, he wants it to be smaller, to be like the brother. And he felt that the brother took the whole space.
AB: Oh, wow. Okay, so who did he make smaller? Himself?
ME: Himself. You remember: it’s always a picture of his inner world. The drawing is a picture of his inner world. So, he started to feel smaller and smaller and smaller, because the mother was busy with his brother because the brother was crying and taking the whole space of the house crying. So, he himself started to feel smaller and smaller and smaller.
AB: Wow.
ME: And the thing’s that he cannot speak, a child cannot understand this level and talk about it. The only thing they can do is look at the picture and ask questions. And then just one important tip for the parents. When you ask your child something about the drawing and you ask the right question, you will see it in the child’s eyes. It’s like when everything falls down, like in the casino. So when it all comes down, you see it in your child’s eyes. Because if the child, for example, feels very happy and you ask what’s going on in the drawing, I think you’re angry. And the child will say, no, I don’t want to talk about it. It means that you’re not there. This is not what he meant. So, you need to ask and listen to make it as accurate as you can.
AB: Okay, so you said, look at the composition, look at the colour, and look at what the child has drawn.
ME: Yes. And what do you feel when you look? What feeling comes up to you? This is a tool that can help you understand the reflection of what your child feels.
AB: And you said it’s a reflection of the inner world. What about adults?
ME: Okay, so with adults, again, they still express the inner world, but there’s a different issue. If I see that adults go to a very familiar symbol like a heart or a flower, I can understand that there is the issue that the client is very defensive. He’s working with his mind, not with his heart. So, I can say what’s going on? You don’t want to become open. I see that the symbols are very familiar. You draw them again and again and again. So what? I tell you what I will do with this kind of client. I will bring a totally new material, something that he has never tried before. Even finger paint. Even finger paint for an adult. Because he needs to start and connect to his inner world from the beginning. Do finger paint. Go to a place that you’ve never met before and from different experiences. You know, that is when the clients start to work. And then I change. I said, let’s do something else now. You start and do one thing, and then in the middle, I say, stop. Now we’re changing. We can change. I can draw and the client can draw, and then we can change. Or I can say, okay, now let’s turn the page upside down and let’s look at the picture from another perspective. Then they can start to feel open. I need to help them to feel free, more confident, and more open.
AB: Coming back to your point about the more unfamiliar it is, the easier you can express what’s going on inside. Because you don’t know what you’re doing.
ME: Yes, you don’t know what you’re doing. And you’re not using your brain or mind or criticism or oh, my god, if my mother will see this picture, if my husband will see this picture, what’s going on? So, you can feel free. This is what we want.
AB: And tell me, typically, how many sessions of art therapy do people need before they feel like you are making a difference? I know each case is different, but even then, you know some people say at least three, at least five, at least ten.
ME: It’s very difficult to say, I think, when you’re going to a psychologist. I mean, you never know what will come up. You start the session or you start the communication. First of all, it takes some time to build trust. So, I come, the client meets me, but he doesn’t trust me immediately. It takes some time until we can communicate and until he trusts me. And I think it depends on the issue. I tell you what, with children, I usually work for around six months to one year. They are very quick to make changes. So, six months to one year, unless there’s any specific issue. So if I get a phone call, and I get many phone calls from mothers and they tell me ‘I work and live in London and we are leaving London and we need to go to another destination. I need you to help my child to say goodbye.’ I need like four to five sessions of separation, goodbye, just to wrap the whole experience in a good way so he can say goodbye to one place and start in a different place. So, we can say this will be like five sessions. Five, six, it depends. But if there’s a bigger issue and the child needs to build trust and to build self-confidence and to learn how to behave with his peers and at school— so it can take longer. I don’t have any magic. It’s a process.
AB: Do you also work with grown up adult-children or grown-up relationships? So husband-wife and you know grown up mothers and kids?
ME: Yes, I do. Usually, the grown ups are not very happy to have a session with the mother. It’s unusual if the grown up will agree to have a session with the mother. But I had some experience with mothers and children of different ages and it was amazing because I think it’s always a good opportunity to work on their relationship. And I think, again, with art therapy, it’s still more safe. It’s not like you say this and the child says something else and you kind of start fighting.
AB: Not talking to each other.
ME: Yes, not talking. Just doing the art together. And I usually give the theme or the idea of what I would like them to do. And then we sit together and we look at [the picture], and when you look at the picture, it makes everything safer because you have an image and the image is like a container. So you can speak about the relationship and connect to the image and you put into the image whatever you feel.
AB: Okay, that sounds wonderful. Can you give everyone one piece of advice?
ME: I’d like people to stay connected to their creativity. I think it’s very important. I think at a certain age in life, when we are tired, and busy with work, life, and everything, we forget that creativity can change a lot. Creativity can make a big change. And I want to quote a small quote that I prepared for you, and I would like to say to everybody— to practise any art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow. So, just do it. Don’t think about it, do it.
AB: You know how a lot of kids have sort of trouble when they’re sleeping and some children have nightmares…some children wake up a lot at night. Is that something you can help them with? That was a question that was sent.
ME: I think I can. Again, it depends. But usually, I can because if the child expresses himself before he goes to bed and during the session or in the afternoon time, he takes out, as we said, the inner world, whatever comes up— if he’s worried or if he is scared. I had a girl… I worked with her for a few months on a monster that she was so afraid of. It wasn’t just at night, it was also during the day. But the breakthrough was when she was able to make the monster from clay and we put the monster next to her. And the monster was very cute because we made it with clay. It took a while but she was able to do it. We did it with clay and after a while, we painted it and she decided to paint it green and yellow. And she became a friend of the monster. And when the big monster came, she said, ‘I have my monster, you can’t do anything to me’. It was an amazing process. But she was able to create her own monster. And when she created her own monster, she felt safe.
AB: Okay, and then the last question I have for you, if you have something that’s physically bothering you, right, like a pain, whether it’s a child or an adult, is that something you’ve ever helped with?
ME: I only had experience with a child who was handicapped. So, it was like a physical thing.
AB: You worked a lot with special needs children?
ME: Yes, a lot with special needs. So that’s very helpful because I think art therapy can really help gain self-esteem and help you feel more safe and secure in the world. And I can’t say that art therapy can change pain or can do something— it’s not physical. But I think if you feel proud of yourself, you create something. And if you can do, after a process— a self-portrait, you can look at yourself and say, this is me. This is who I am. This is the picture. It is what it is. This is what I can show to the world. This is what I can give to the world. I think it can make a big difference in the way you look at yourself. And I think this is what is important.
AB: Okay, that’s lovely. Thank you so much, Michal.
ME: Thank you very much. Anshu. Bye bye.
AB: Take care. Bye, bye. Thanks for joining us. Hope you enjoyed the Wellness Curated podcast. Please subscribe and tell your friends and family about it. And here’s to you leading your best life.